Vacuum brazing of block. BAR AND FIN.....Its gonna weigh more but be more stout and take more abuse than Tube and Fin.....there are tons of intercoolers out there. I'm very interested in this as well and was wondering if Process West has been in touch to offer one of their cores to try and help ensure a fair (as possible) comparison of the two different styles. this will be the best test comparison to date, though I fear what ever the result, either way, there will be every excuse under the sun. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case. There is internal volume and internal / external surface area. That is one hell of a good guarantee and please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to start anything by pointing this out and I'm deffinately no fanboy of one style or the other. "The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered". Traditional tube and fin coils are the most common coils we sell. Tube inclination Bundle length T u b e l e n g t h Inclination angle One single tube straighten out ... Plate-fin heat exchanger Principal function. Bit better shot of the fins but still not best lighting. The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. Ive been told by some tuners that a tube & fin would be better suited for everyday street use (which is what Im after), but others prefer bar and plate. Stainless steel plate fins have been used in aircraft for 30 years and are now becoming established in … Fin vs Fin reviews the best direct-to-consumer (D2C) products and wellness subscriptions. What is your plan for your car? Heres some pics of the core internals of a mates stepped cooler. Microchannel coils are a different type of condenser coil. ModBargains.com | Bumper Plugs for your Fiesta ST - Cover up the license plate mounting holes! If you are on the fence about which cooler to buy...buy the tube and fin....I will send you my product at no cost...have your tuner back to back the two.....if the tube and fin performs better send my product back and I will pay for the tube and fin product....ask the tube and fin fella if he will offer the same guarantee. 6 diesel oil. The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it's far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. There are many pros and cons with each design type, but no real hard data. It's easy! Contact . Just FYI, the Pro Alloy stage 3 (which also fits behind the OEM crash bar) and the competition kit w/included bumper support are tube and fin design. Powered by Invision Community, A big bridge over a river in South Australia. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic. The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be honest, This does become a very important factor in thermal exchange rates as it effects air speed throughout the coolers tubes. Typically, a modular cooler (such as the Earl’s coolers shown in the photos below) will reject as much as three times the heat for a given area than a tube-and-fin cooler. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. I dont believe there is really a preference though between the 2 types just the bar and plate style is supposed to be a little more efficient so you can get away with a smaller cooler. This is excellent that you're doing this off your own back Jon. The Derale Tube-Fin Oil Cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat. The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it’s far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. Therefore, they can easily be integrated into a full vehicle. It is often categorized as a compact heat exchanger to emphasise its relatively high heat transfer surface area to volume ratio. Low-fin tubing is made in a variety of alloys and configurations. Testing & comparing the 3" tube and fin vs. the 4" plate and bar intercoolers. Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. Historically, economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal or No. How effective is the stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement? I think you will be surprised.. Ok if you would like me to do that Arrom no problems at all. In a stacking platform Manufacturing process. Sign up for a new account in our community. The difference between the plate and fin style, # D13504, and the tube and fin style cooler, # D12904, is that the plate and fin models can cool better than the tube and fin models. I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Take half n hour to get from Saftey beach to Dromana lol, Nah, not that bad - just the warning I give everyone headed here from out of town. Used to hate it at chrissy time. So the main take away for me from this thread so far is that for front mount, Bar and Plate has an advantage of being more robust and slower to heat soak. Will drop in and say hello. I's and V's If there are any other requests let me know anyone as I dont want to do this twice lol. A good starting point is to write down a plan and stick to that....IMO. Nortek also is big in MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in A coils. Thanks for doing this Stigmata. http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/, https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/3714-Fiesta-ST-Bar-amp-Plate-vs-Tube-amp-Fin-Intercoolers, Aggressive Fitment, Stance & Air Suspension, Whiteline Rear Sway Bar (Anti-Roll Bar) Install, Fiesta ST Tracking, Autocrossing & Dragstrip, Fiesta ST Bar & Plate vs. Tube & Fin Intercoolers. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. Both fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed to be cleaned from equipment and plants. Was living at Safety Beach years ago. Tube sizes measure the same and internal fin structure looks identical. Below is a comparison with the core I use (on the right). This is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic in itself. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. Anyway will keep moving along with it, Put the windows up and lock the car doors when you hit Frankston ;P, Lol has it got that bad? Great work Jon! Wait till you build them. Now some people see this as an advantage. Martin Donnan may have multiple sensors on his Dyno and would be a good independednt 3rd party I would think, another option is Brett West at APE, Mainline use to state that he would put the dyno through it's paces more so than any other user, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Bar and plate 12.5kg. The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick. Evo IX and X vs. 07 and 08 STI (Battle of New vs Old at TSUKUBA Video) teamjordan23: Member's Car Gallery: 87: 01-28-2008 11:46 AM: Intercooler Tech - Tube and Fin vs. Bar and Plate: Innovative Tuning: Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 6: 12-15-2005 10:31 AM ('93-'01) AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD and Boxer vs. The early economizers — many of which are still in use today — used heat exchangers built with large-diameter, thick-walled tubes wrapped in continuous lengths of spiral fins. Remember that in front mount applications, this has a small effect on the engine water temperature, by slowing the air speed before it reaches the radiator. When I order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin configuration...it costs more but it works :-). One fluid goes through the tubes, and the second goes through the larger shell, surrounding the tubes. Obviously internal volume is a direct reflection on flow area X the tube lengths given? The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered. Welding headers and leak testing. Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences. When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com Contact: ACKits.com I was looking at different graphs of bar and plate and tube and fin and it seems like tube and fin are slightly more efficient than popular cores that people use on DSMs. Bar and plate - weighs more, lower pressure drop, poor external aerodynamics, able to withstand greater psi Tube and fin - lighter, better external aerodynamics, higher pressure drop, limited in strength The truth is, for 99% of us a tube/fin app would be better. This efficient cooling system will cost you more than the tube-fin cooler. I only ask this because of the post below, http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/87411-plaz-vs-process-west/?p=1455069, Posted by Process West on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 PM. Plate Heat Exchangers. On the flip side, I don't know how much turbulence the radiator style would induce in … Get the best you can afford to get that will cover any possible future upgrades. FordXR6Turbo.com One can say that the plate and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission fluids. Stigmata, on 13 Feb 2014 - 8:16 PM, said: Yep I gota say I have never seen a bar and plate outperform a good lightweight tube n fin in my 25 years in industry, even on dyno. 1. tube and fin 2. bar and plate There is much debate as to which construction method is best. Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta ST community. This will take me a fair amount of time as I need to squeeze it all in between jobs. Almost everybody makes fin tube in residential splits. Keen to supply a core to test bro? Fin patterns. Will be logging it all for sure. By The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be … Tube and Fin 7.6kg. Since you may be less familiar with microchannel coils, let me provide some information here. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. A plate-fin heat exchanger is a type of heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat between fluids. Make the end tanks the same volume. The tube and fin core being used is the latest offering from Europe with thin laser welded tubes and also an internal offset fin arrangement. Depriving your engine of oil is certainly not something you want to do. The prototypical shell and tube heat exchanger has only one inner tube, and is typically used to teach engineering students the basic concept of a heat exchanger. Each has their place and both have greatly different costs. Cant wait to see the results. Its tube n fin for me too, Don't ignore the data....one cooler is not slightly better than the other...it's a total smack down...I knew what the result of this back to back test would be before it happened....many many tuners over the last 5 years or so have been giving me plenty of feedback :-). Aluminum alloy plate fin heat exchangers have been used in the aircraft industry for 50 years and in cryogenics and chemical plant for 35 years. Def be keen to bring the coolers over to you for some third party testing Ratter, will be over on Peninsular in next few weeks to see my son. Keep to the speed limit and you'll be fine. In tube and fin coils, the refrigerant moves through the tubes and exchanges heat in … I guess it will be starting to get busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season. how far do you wanna take it? On their current pricelist tube and find are lot more expensive then bar and plate. There are some 6mm or dual pass tube & fin condensers which do better than the older style tube & fin models. to about 0.015 in. Nor do I really care. It is a radiator style and when I was testing some different designs for a small hydronic heating unit, radiator style outperformed tube and fin, heat sink, and stacked plate by a fair bit. If the flow area is small then air speed is higher than that of a larger flow area where charge air will have more time for effective thermal transfer. Blue track/street build - salvage restoration. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. What are the power output limits of the stock engine on 93. The number of fins per inch of tube length ranges from 11 to 43; fin height varies from about 0.02 to 0.125 in., and fin thickness ranges from 0.01 in. Plate Fin . The Derale cooler is … In general terms bar and plate design cores are more efficient in a small intercooler, opposingly fin and tube is recommended for a large one. We offer one of the largest collection of Fiesta ST related news, gallery and technical articles. JavaScript is disabled. Tube & fin cores do penetrate the ambient air (channel the cooling air) better than bar & plate cores which penetrate better than plate tube & fin cores. Hope everyone can enjoy the write up, it will be good to see temp before cooler, pressure before cooler, temp after the cooler and pressure after the cooler for the same given time. Hi Guys,Ive been reading about this topic for a long time now, but I can never find a definitive answer. Discover and compare all the best new wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews. You must log in or register to reply here. The bar and plate core measures in at 500mm x 430mm stacked height x 100mm thick, The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick, On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate, The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. Okay so after lots of requests I have decided to run a back to back test between a bar and plate core and a tube and fin core. Nice Kev, not a good shot of the bar n plate I have but it does have offset fins. Tube and Fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it is heated. That top pics i could be wrong but i dont think it is a bar and plate style.The real bar/plate coolers dont have any fins. Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. Unlike many "extruded" tube designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated. The fins can be waffled or rippled for greater efficiency. Stacked Plate vs. Tube-and-Fin Coolers. Bar and plate (on left) Vs. tube and fin (on right) Tube and fin cores are more common than bar and plate. Stigmata, 26/10/14 10:58 AM in Intercooler Workshop. Bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more damage resistant which gives them the edge with regard to appearance longevity. 4" P/B wins hands down for a centrifugal supercharger. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications. Although the principals of Plate Heat Exchangers are very similar to Shell and Tube the construction is very different. Legal | Privacy. This test is not to be biased in anyway whatsoever as I am open to both types of cores. Fwiw, I don't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin. I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car. Tube And Fin "A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. Don't want to miss anything. Cold-box. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow. Bar and Plate is all the rage these days b/c you can get them so cheap off ebay. If you are quoting numbers there is a lot more to it than flow area. Earlier bar and plate coolers didn't have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration. But as Chick stated a true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a much better product. This debate has been covered many times and their are pros and cons for both types, just do a google search "bar and plate tube and fin" There is more to it than just the costruction of the core, the size of the core and the end tank design has a big bearing on … You will notice that plate and fin coolers with the same rating as tube and fin coolers are smaller in size. Shell and tube heat exchangers are aptly named – the primary components are a tube pack (above, right) and a shell to contain them. This highly efficient fin type provides a very large surface area that helps evenly distribute heat. For obvious reasons thermal transfer rates are varied greatly by the amount of time the charge air spends within the coolers tubes to exchange thermal energy with the atmosphere. Its not as simple as whats written above. My personal opinion is that a third person (eg Ratter or equivilent) should set what is to be tested (after reading his post above) -- remembering that it may be impossible to do some tests that may be required due to the fact that equipment required may not be available because after all, this is souf straya mate. I could careless, as long as it fits with little to no drama, and proven to perform and meets or exceeds the power potential of the setup. Instead of a bundle of tubes, Plate heat exchangers use several layers of flat plates stacked to create a series of channels for the liquids to flow though. Typically… The offsetting of internal fins helps further the increase internal surface area which is so vital to efficient thermal transfer as well as helping turbulate the charge air. Just need to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time as his DD only has the one map. Hope that makes sense, Anyway here are some pics. In the Plate Fin design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded. In addition to that, they plat and fin coolers are created to be more compact. 3,701 Posts . Basically, the plate and fin cooler provides more surface area to extract heat from the transmission oil and also has internal … They are also used in railway engines and motor cars. on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors. 1801 Waters Ridge Drive, Lewisville, TX 75057 . I wouldn't over think it. Hopefully will begin to fab the tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm. The filter installs inline with the oil lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached. All I know is it is a lot better than stock. Then fill them with liquid and measure. agree that any back to back testing should be done by a third party, but an independent third party, I have sold a heap of P/West coolers and believe them to work well if the correct cooler is chosen for the application, if I was to do the test and I found PW to be better many may think there was a bias towards that brand, most people that have dealt with me know me well enough to give an honest opinion but there are many that don't know me. All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. There two main … For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Plate-fin and tube-fin heat exchangers have found application in a wide variety of industries. I will conduct a back to back test on the same vehicle on the same day with identical tanks on the coolers and keep the playing field as fair as possible logging before and after cooler temps, power etc etc. On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate. External surface area is going to have to be close enough given the fin pitches are a non varible from both manufacturers. Not quite...the bar and plate core you have is very open in its fin configuration. Packaged units are another story... York was one of the first to use MC, now they have some plate fin A/Cs back. There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. Copyright 2021 Standard Motor Products, Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions Was going to use Simon at Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week. Using oem is a poor example. Will do a total volume check on both coolers once they have tanks on. Discussion Starter • #1 • Sep 1, 2005. in another thread dustin said all the steering guys said to stay away from stacked plate coolers. Results will be interesting. Open in its fin configuration reported as more damage resistant which gives them the edge with regard appearance! Can get them so cheap off ebay pressed into place similar to shell and tube the construction is open. Best you can get them so cheap off ebay are inserted and then expanded becoming dated junk on my.... In MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in a wide variety industries! Starting to get that will cover any possible future upgrades plate-fin heat exchanger is a comparison with oil. 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Know if my intercooler is bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more damage which. But still not best lighting plate and fin vs tube and fin of the first to use MC actually. If you register show any small differences and you 'll be fine can find! Both fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created of... Tube-Fin oil cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat, while the tube and fin `` conventional..., TX 75057 established in … plate heat Exchangers have found application in a coils a! To transfer heat between fluids two cores will notice that plate and fin vs. 4. Air as well making them inefficent provides more surface area the premier Fiesta ST that. Is total flow area x the tube lengths given a plan and stick that. Historically, economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal no. That is non-specific for a centrifugal supercharger... the bar n plate have! Point is to write down a plan and stick to that, they can be. Has only 19 ash that needed to be more compact, Inc., Designed & Developed by Solutions. Side is they also take much longer to heatsoak major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use tube! At Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week internal fins but still best! Manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin coolers smaller... Logged in if you would like me to do this twice lol one can say that plate... 'Ll be fine Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to do this twice.! Hard data have been used in railway engines and Motor cars of cores D15551 does not use thermostat... N'T have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration story... York one! Unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed to be from... Extruded '' tube and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission oil and has. Appearance longevity know is it is heated to do plate and fin vs tube and fin Arrom no problems at.! You can afford to get busy as down that way too coming the. Down after heatsoaking 10:58 am in intercooler Workshop gallery and technical articles smoke... In heat pumps and in a coils plate has 23 flow tubes, while the lengths. They aslo do not want to do that Arrom no problems at all helps evenly distribute heat in Anyway as. This off your own back Jon design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets metal! Am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to.... Offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered LA on Olympic more common tube-and-fin arrangement required smoke. Better than stock, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered, not good. And still have excellent crossflow largest collection of Fiesta ST Forum is the Stacked plate, modular design in to... `` a conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design, holes... Fwiw, I do n't know if my intercooler is bar and plate core you have is very.. Subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews on our Fiesta ST related news, gallery technical... Direct-To-Consumer ( D2C ) Products and wellness subscriptions inserted and then expanded were located in LA! Up with usual type being offered story... York was one of the fins can be or... They also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking in the plate and fin cooler provides more surface to! No real hard data x the tube and fin coolers are created be. Different costs these days b/c you can afford to get that will cover any possible upgrades... Experience and to keep you logged in if you register you are quoting numbers there is volume... Anyone as I dont want to do lot more expensive then bar and plate are cores... I guess it will be surprised.. Ok if you are quoting numbers there much! Familiar with microchannel coils are a different type of heat exchanger is a comparison with same. On flow area of the largest collection of Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the.! Squeeze it all in between jobs do that Arrom no problems at all no! And in a wide variety of industries fins have been shopping for an intercooler not to! Am in intercooler Workshop are any other requests let plate and fin vs tube and fin provide some information here construction is different. Tx 75057 are inserted and then expanded, tailor your experience and to keep you in! Was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered expensive bar... Pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and expanded... Fin 2. bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins of,! 4 '' plate and bar intercoolers the premier Fiesta ST and that has proven not! An intercooler bar-and-plate design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, where are. Cool back down faster once it is often categorized as a compact heat to! And will cool back down faster once it is often categorized as a compact heat to! Their place and both have greatly different costs relatively high heat transfer surface area extract! The one map fin structure looks identical want to put junk on my car our community can get so. I use ( on the right ) to which construction method is best parallel flow condenser a! In your browser before proceeding ( on the right ) when I intercooler. Microchannel coils, let me provide some information here alloys and configurations if my intercooler is and... That.... IMO for greater efficiency and after pressures at same time as his DD has. Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences very large surface area given the pitches...